My God Wins, Loser
October 9, 2007 by TJM Admin
While driving around today, I found myself listening to some talk radio. In front of me, there was a car with a bumper sticker that read, “If your living like there is no god, you had better be right!” Next to that, another bumper sticker that read, “WARNING: In case of the rapture, this car will become unmanned.” Next to that car was another vehicle with a solitary sticker that read, “Praise Allah.”
I have been asked Pascal’s Wager so many times in my life that I no longer want to dignify it with an answer. So, for now, I would like to turn the tables a bit and ask you something. What makes you so sure that YOUR god (which isn’t really your god, but rather the one which you have been taught) is THE god? “Well, the Bible says,” or “The Qu’ran says,” doesn’t really apply here. After all, those books are claimed to have been inspired by their respective gods. I don’t really expect to turn the last page and read, “Oh, and by the way, this is all just some fictional crap so don’t take it literally.” Would kind of ruin it, now wouldn’t it?
Then, you have the loophole. “It was inspired by god, but written by men. Of course there will be some minor contradictions and errors; it was penned by men and translated several times!” While this may account for the errors that are recorded, it simply begs another question. How do you know that the whole thing is not erroneous? After all, we don’t really have “original” texts. But this is not the point. The main point is that we would need to prove your god outside of his word. After all, it is his word. Don’t you think that there might be just a little bias there?
“Well, I have seen miracles performed in the name of (my) god.” Great! But I have some sad news for you. There are other gods that have miracles ascribed to them as well! (The same can be said for arguments like, “I have seen Jesus [or angels or what have you.]“)
What in the world do you have left? “Faith.” Ah yes, faith. Please tell me why we so readily accept ‘faith’ here but not in other areas of our lives? Or, better yet, why must why have logical explanations for everything else in our lives with the exception of god? I mean, you could just as easily have faith in evolution. You could just as easily have faith that it was just a random clash of two universes that created the one that we call “ours.”
And if you must rely on faith, why not faith in another’s god? What makes you so sure that the Pagans aren’t right? Muslims? Jews? Hindus?
These questions cannot be answered by believers. Each one prays to the God of the culture he was born in, and believes in that God for a better life here on earth as well as after death. (For that he or she tithes furiously).
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I rely on grace and mercy. The idea that as a human no action that I do is really going to make me worthy of God’s attention, why should he care unless it comes out of him for some reason taking an interest in bridging the gap between humanity and himself. There is nothing that will ever make me worthy of the favor of a super natural being.
It is for this reason that Christianity, if there really is a God out there, is the only thing that logically makes sense to me. Every other religion is trying to justify themselves and prove themselves worthy of God’s attention and favor. Given the vastness of the universe and the sheer number of people just on this planet I don’t see how it makes any sense to think that because of my actions God is going to notice me. That is unless he already does but not because it is contingent on anything I am doing.
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You contradict yourself numerous times in your reply, Aaron.
You rely on grace and mercy, at the same time you state that nothing will ever make you worthy of the favor of a god. Why should he have mercy on you then, and not on the Buddhist, the Muslim, the Jew or the Atheist?
What makes you so special?
Lu
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Way to skirt the questions, Aaron. I was going to reply more, but then I figure that that about covers it. (It really does show when someone does not really read the post yet comments on it.)
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Aaron,
I laughed when I read your comment.
The smugness, the arrogance inherent in stating “Every other religion is trying to justify themselves and prove themselves worthy of God’s attention and favor.”
Tragically amused,
Rival
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It seems that a constant tactic for you guys is to spew venom (rivalarrival) at someone that’s trying to engage in a conversation. Sorry I’m not perfect. I like how you attack me and use words like ’smug’ and ‘arrogance’ in what I was giving as an honest reply on how I felt. You don’t give an air of wanting to actually dialog about things you are content to say how smart you are and how dumb Christians are here on your atheist circle jerk. I hope this is an internet persona for most people and not how you treat people in real life.
With that said Luci it might be simplistic but I did answer the question. I can’t reach God. He must reach me. That was the purpose of Christ to bridge that gap.
“It is for this reason that Christianity, if there really is a God out there, is the only thing that logically makes sense to me.”
I’m all for talking about things but maybe being an internet tough guy (rivalarrival) isn’t the best way to prove your point.
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Aaron, almost EVERY major religion has had their “extension” of god that has attempted to “reach” them. This is the point of the whole article. The claims of Christianity are fundamentally no different than many other religions out there. Just a different wrapper on the same candy bar.
But let’s just say that yours is an acceptable answer to the multiple questions brought up here. The next thing that would be necessary is is proof that Jesus was the son of god. In essence, we must have proof of divinity.
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Aaron,
Thanks for the advice, I’ll take it into consideration.
As TJM alluded, Christianity is guilty of the same behavior you attribute to other religions, and many other religions assign the same “mercy and grace” attributes to their god concepts.
Arrogance is one of the traits inherent in religion. The ability to dismiss opposing opinions or contrary evidence for no reason than “I know that I’ve chosen the right path” is arrogance.
That Christians simultaneously claim to be imperfect beings, and refuse to consider that their faith may be wrong is hypocrisy.
Eh, it’s 2100 hours here, and Tuesday is the closest I get to a weekend. I’m getting rapidly inebriated.
Half-Tanked,
Rival
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Aaron…
I understand what you are saying. Unfortunately, I guess, really. The things that you point out and the things everyone else are pointing out are the reasons why I am stuck in limbo like I am, and have been for the past ten years. Have you ever found yourself wondering, even for a split second, about the things that the others have said on here? I did. If you look at my previous posts you will see my struggles. I sometimes find myself wishing that I could go back to the place where I rely on grace and mercy. It gives such great comfort, doesn’t it? I can also “give myself and my life to God” and not take responsibility for anything else. I know that you are probably thinking that everyone on here is angry. Some people are frustrated, I think. Please hang in there and give your insight. Everyone is respected here, no matter what, and again, if you read my past articles (I am an author here) you will see what I mean when I say that I am a fence sitter! I look forward to seeing more posts from you!
R.C.
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I don’t know why I’m going to bother wasting my next 7 mins of my life, but what the hell.
I’m a Jew who believes in the Messiah that most people call Christ.
With that said so I can be throughly trashed for believing in something, I’ll continue.
Arron and Rival are same coin but they are on two different sides.
Both continue to not have an intelligent debate, and would rather bitch at one another back and forth about their respective stances on religion. No one can say with 100% certainty how we got here. Even the evolutionary theory is just that - THEORY! Not fact, as far as proving anything it’s about worth as much as the bible. And just as much one cannot disprove or prove G-d exists . But I have a few questions for atheists to see if they can come up with a logical answer since all atheists care about is logical. Is it possible for a man in the middle east set in the time of approximate 2000 B.C.E (I think don’t quote me but you get the picture) To write a book 5 chapters long, each chapter containing roughly 60 - 100 pages, each page containing thousands of letters, and every 50th letter throughout the entirety of the book spell the same word over and over again? Because in the Torah (First 5 chapters of the bible in hebrew) that occurs, Spelling out (Yud-Hey-Vav-Hey) The name of (the supposed) G-d.
Now does this prove G-d exists? Of course not, but it is circumstantial evidence that could prove god with more evidence to back it up, unless the evidence could be refuted.
Now I’m curious to see if I’m refuted with a degree of intelligence, or if I’m scoffed off at by Atheists much like Christians scoff them off.
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Mikaehel, I’d like to address a few of those points you brought up.
Even the evolutionary theory is just that - THEORY! Not fact, as far as proving anything it’s about worth as much as the bible
Evolution is a scientific theory, the word in this context has a different meaning to theory in everyday usage. A scientific theory is “a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena” - not a “guess”. Also, there is a wealth of evidence (see http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/) supporting evolution, whereas the only evidence of biblical truths is the bible itself - hardly “worth as much as the bible” when it comes to proving anything.
You mention that you found alphabetical proof in the bible… This is a concept I’ve seen before. It’s pure statistics, manipulate a set of data long enough and all kinds of patterns will emerge. The bible also predicts UFOs/Roswell, indeed you can find all kinds of things there, from presidents to nazi predictions. I encourage you to read http://www.csicop.org/si/9711/bible-code.html. Words appearing in the bible do not validate it any more than assassination predictions in Moby Dick (http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html).
Welcome to the site. I enjoy hearing alternate points of view on the subject.
By the way - why do you censor the o in god?
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Mikeahel,
“Even the evolutionary theory is just that - THEORY! Not fact, as far as proving anything it’s about worth as much as the bible.”
A scientific theory is more significant than a scientific fact.
A Theory explains the facts in evidence, and can be used to predict the existence of other facts.
Biblical “theory” starts with the desired conclusion, and continues speaking until its detractors can no longer make a rational argument against it, like the “parable” of the Dragon in the Garage.
Scientific Theory starts with a few facts, and develops. When predictions don’t match reality, the theory is adjusted. A scientific theory is tested every time a new fact is discovered, or a prediction is found to be false. The adjusted theory is (by definition) the best explanation of the facts available.
Gravity is “just a theory” too…
That a man used every 50th word to encode a secret message is interesting in cryptology circles, but quite boring as evidence of god’s existence.
Can you show that it was the original author who did this and not one of the numerous other people who handled the text in the meantime? Can you show that none of them had any intention of encoding this message?
2:30AM’ily,
Rival
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Mikaehel: - your argument about biblical numerology would be stronger if it were actually true. I happen to own a hebrew bible, and jsut counted every fifthieth letter for the first 4 such letters, and got Lamud-Yud-Yud-Aleph, which spells nothing. I’d say that all that proves is that you’re gullible and heard something and blindly believed it without the ridiculously easy amount of work it took to check it.
Maybe that’s why you’re gullible enough to believe that you can be Jewish while believing something so inherently against judaism.
I’d argue with your complete misunderstanding of evolution and scientific theories, but everyone else seems to have done that quite well already.
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@Aaron: Christianity often does claim to be worthy of a deity’s attention, with the simple idea that prayer works. When it doesn’t. Further, Christianity is just as vehement as every other religion in proving its validity. Again, it fails.
@Mikaehel: Biblical statistics mean nothing, as has been said, if you analyze anything for too long you will find patterns. And religious texts have been analyzed a hell of a lot more than any other type of text.
And as has been said, apparently you are wrong.
Further, theories are the most solid concepts of science, there is nothing stronger.
Better?
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“Aaron: Christianity often does claim to be worthy of a deity’s attention, with the simple idea that prayer works. When it doesn’t. Further, Christianity is just as vehement as every other religion in proving its validity. Again, it fails.”
I would love to see you actually form a rational argument for the truth of this statement. You say things and for someone that is adamant about facts and proofs you provide none. I eagerly await you doing so.
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Prayer doesn’t work. Objective scientific studies are more authoritative on the subject than any simple ‘rational argument’.
“To date there has not been a single good study showing that prayer has any value for helping sick people.”
“[...]we have no good evidence of the effectiveness of intercessory prayer in which the person does not know he is being prayed for.”
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msciprayer.html
“Praying for sick strangers does not improve their prospects of recovering, according to a large, carefully designed study that casts doubt on the widely held belief that being prayed for can help a person heal.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/14/AR2005071401695.html
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“Prayer doesn’t work. Objective scientific studies are more authoritative on the subject than any simple ‘rational argument’”
My Aunt had chronic brain cancer that had spread through her body and had six weeks to live. People were praying for her and 6 months later the doctors were confused as to why she hadn’t died yet. MRI reveals that it had completely disappeared. 30 years later she is still here cancer free.
My rational argument is that you don’t have any personal experience with this type of thing so it’s easy for you to dismiss it as not working.
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Oh yeah and she wasn’t on chemo during that 6 months.
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Yeah, and global warming is caused by pirates. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.
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aaron,
The flying spaghetti monster cured your aunt, despite her lack of faith and the lack of faith of the people praying for her. She;s good like that.
Tom,
She will forgive you your heresy for doubting the pirate/climate link. she’s good like that.
(It’s fun to make irrational claims based on our own lack of evidence)
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