New in the Mail Bag
March 2, 2008
An interesting dialog developed as someone contacted me via our contact page. The following is the transcript of our communication thus far.
Do you really believe that this magnificent universe with all its precision and exact order created itself? The fool says there is no God.
Tell me, what hospital, hospice, rescue mission, homeless shelter or any other thing beneficial to mankind has been established by atheists?Praying for you,
D******
My response:
Firstly, the universe does not have exacting precision. In fact, quite the contrary is true. Galaxies collide with one another, sometimes producing completely different galaxies (similar to how our moon came to be). Dying stars create massive super-novas that destroy whole planets. It is all in your perspective. Much like after the rain. “And the puddle thinks to himself, ‘How perfectly I fit into this hole. It must have been created just for me.’” You say that it is the fool who says there is no God. I say that it is foolish to believe only that which you were taught without questioning. I was a “born-again” Christian. I went to school to become a pastor. The more I learned, the more I was unsure. (The funny thing is that most atheists know substantially more about the history of various religions than those that practice them. Why? Being skeptical about everything forces you to learn even more to come to a knowledgeable conclusion.)
Let us say that there is a God. Which of the over 250 gods that are worshipped around the world should I throw my belief to?
As for your final question:
1. The American Atheist Homeless Shelters, located in every small to large urban area in the United States. There are in excess of 700 shelters located throughout the continental United States. Manned by Atheists of all races, colors and creeds, they provide shelter, food, clothing, and a lack of spiritual help and guidance.2. The American Atheist Society is also committed to providing high-tech professional health care in the many Atheist hospitals in every corner of America. They also are well known for the many smaller medical clinics that have helped the poor and poverty stricken in blighted areas.
The staffing in these medical clinics give of themselves night and day.3. In addition to all the many in and outpatient hospitals, the American Atheist Children’s Hospitals are on the cutting edge of infant and adolescent care. They are staffed by highly dedicated care givers who work tirelessly to bring health care to those who would otherwise go without.
4. Then there is, Atheist charities, similar to Catholic charities, but far more advanced. They don’t offer false hope to those who are hurting by praying with them. Atheist charities, believe a nice pat on the back, and a little motivational talk is all that’s needed to get people back on the right path.
5. Then there is the American Atheist Hospice program. Thousands of Atheists in every city, town, and little burg in this country are committed to providing comfort and care during the last remaining days of someone’s life.
I could go on. In addition, you may wish to google Secular Humanism for a better understanding.
He then wrote back:
Well then…Do you believe this chaotic universe created itself? I’ve never seen or heard of anything founded by atheists and don’t know of anyone who has. So exactly which corner are they on?
D*** D****
My final response so far:
Do I believe that this chaotic universe created itself? Not in the manner that you may use the term “create,” that is, with intent or purpose. You are also assuming that this is the only universe in existence. Current theoretical astrophysics models show how two universes can collide with on another, creating a third universe. While the question could then be asked, “Where did the two original universes come from,” the question is still a question from ignorance (not taking a dig at you, as we are all ignorant as to the beginnings of the universe as we know it). Simply because one does not know the answer to a paradox does not mean that one is right in inserting “God” into the equation. At one time it was thought that seizures were brought on by demons. As we learned more about the human brain and it’s neural activity, we realized that this was false. Unfortunately, a great number of people died simply due to a belief in something simply because it was not understood.
As for your other question, I have already given you 5 separate examples. You obviously have an internet connection, therefor you have access to multiple search engines. You could just simply search those organizations out. But you won’t. The reason is that you believe that atheists are amoral. Since we do not believe in a god, why help others? Why do what is right if there is no consequence? It is called the Social Contract. Even lower primates have a sense of morality, albeit very basic.
The problem that you are facing with me is that you do not have a firm grasp on my stance while I understand your stance all too well. Before beginning a debate of any kind, be sure that you know your opponent’s position. Not just know it, but understand it. I am more than happy to converse with you further on the matter, but you must do some research of your own before attacking a position that you do not fully understand.
Anyone else like to chime in?
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34 Responses to “New in the Mail Bag”
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I think you just about said it all, mate. Although I do find it quite amusing that we atheists can become so immersed in our own tirades and stream of thought based on virtually only minimal prods from the theist.
I have seen it quite often before. We are basically arguing their side for them better than they themselves do - countering points they haven’t even made yet.
However, while that might be a virtue when it comes to academic writing and even though I must grant it is quite amusing, allow me to question the appropriateness of that when it comes to letter-correspondence.
I think we do need to let these people speak for themselves some times. Because while we might argue their side better than them, they often say some outlandish things that actually hurt their own case - if you let them.
I’d say this was a fairly solid response, but I really wanted you to mention the logical fallacy in the guy’s initial question:
“Do you really believe that this magnificent universe with all its precision and exact order created itself? …Tell me, what hospital, hospice, rescue mission, homeless shelter or any other thing beneficial to mankind has been established by atheists?”
What a red herring! What do charities and hospitals have to do with the origin of the universe? I’d say it wouldn’t matter if atheists had never done anything positive, it wouldn’t change the scientific facts of cosmology, geology, biology, and evolution.
Either the asker was just scatterbrained in his asking, or he was trying to distract you from the patchwork qualities of his argument.
This is the perfect example of how ideological revolutions get started. The mainstream believer never has to think through their beliefs, because it was handed down to them to be accepted without question. But when people take the contrary position, they are constantly challenged to defend their views, and a kind of intellectual evolution develops; over time, the argument adapts to better survive scrutiny. Insufficient responses are stripped off while stronger arguments thrive due to the opposition’s unwillingness to closely analyze its own ideas. The mainstream becomes increasingly vulnerable and then one day the new idea plants itself in the form of credible doubt in the minds of the those with improved critical thinking abilities. “Marketplace of Ideas” at its best.
** The perils of Pauline thinking **
At 1Cor1:1-end Paul ridicules the world’s wisdom — but you don’t quite appreciate that you’re dabbling in it, quite badly.
Just for the sake of humoring you, let’s assume that the bad old argument from (supposed) design could establish the truth of the proposition “there is a god X.”
Notice that the design argument never establishes the existence of a single unique god; instead of a monopoly there could be a duopoly or a committee. Or, my favorite, a cosmic dung beetle. Ancient Egyptians surmised one created our universe.
However, let’s humor you some more — assume there is one and only one designer, call it god X. Now, just how do you establish that god X = your god Y? Where I assume Y is one of the divinities served up to us by a big-3 near eastern monotheism.
How do you get god X = designer = god Y = xian God? First, god X is an “it”, not a he or a she. Just where does its male persona come from? Why does it happen to care one iota about its universe or you in particular. Just how do you establish a caring personhood for a male gendered absolute spirit who created a universe and who happens also to be a misogynist.
It just ain’t obvious. You can’t cite scripture because that would be question begging. Moreover, xianity is easy to refute — Epicurus did so 300 years before an alleged Jesus was born!
Now, just because you can appear to talk about gods, does not mean that any entity, being, ground of being, spirit . . . from a superordinate moralized metaphysical realm does exist, or could exist.
No doubt, I can have opinions about a fictitious character named ‘Hamlet’ as presented by Shakespeare in his play, ‘The Tragedy of Hamlet.’ I can also have opinions about a fictitious character named ‘God’ as presented in the synoptic gospels of ‘The New Testament.’
All I can know about these characters is what I read in allegedly “sacred” primary sources directly devoted to them. I can no more find “God” by doing cosmological research than I can disinter “Hamlet’s” bones in a chapel at Elsinore.
bipolar2
It’s easier to believe the universe just exists than that a god just exists and creates the universe. One less assumption.
There’s no evidence either way, other than that the universe exists.
John Morales, I’ve got a present for you:
Do you like it?
Agh! It didn’t show up. I didn’t know that these comments don’t support html.
You’ll just have to copy/paste then:
http://www.scarmig.com/occamsrazor.gif
I’m with you on this debate, but I’m having trouble finding info on American Atheist Children’s Hospitals, Homeless Shelters, and Hospice. You make it sound like you can just Google these things, but obviously they are either called something else, are only tangentially affiliated with American Atheists, or are so poorly run that they don’t have web sites.
In fact, I’m trying to find links on the American Atheists web site , and I’m not having any success. A Google search for “american atheist SOCIETY” only comes up with the same result.
So I think if you’re going to use these examples you should realize how weak they actually are. Please provide links. I’d love to know about these programs.
Stutz, I’m having trouble finding those things as well. Although upon googling it would seem that our friend has either copied the list verbatim from here:
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/opinion/T7P3NMS58C9UJPOK5/p68
Or they both copied it from the same place.
Now I am starting to wonder about the sources for that. :S
Not that I do not believe that there are atheist organisations out there doing good but it sure would be nice to have some sources for future reference…
As far as the Atheist hospitals question goes, this article is pretty good
http://www.rationalresponders.com/how_many_hospitals_have_atheists_built
Oh, and nice debate so far
I wanna see the next response… I can’t see any possible outcome than ‘Wow you converted me!’ myself, but there we go 
Do you or do you not believe the universe created itself?
Instead of patting yourself on the back for how intelligent and full of wisdom you think you are, just answer the question and stop tap dancing around it.
Still praying for all of you.
Doug
Doug,
So glad that you have decided to join in on the discussion here on the forum rather than just by email.
I have no problem in answering your question, as I have numerous times already. I have taken note, however, that you have sidestepped numerous questions that I have posed to you.
To the question at hand. Do I believe that the universe created itself? Whether or not I believe that the universe created itself is of no consequence. The simple fact of the matter is that it would be just that, a belief. Worse yet, it would be a groundless belief.
The correct question is, “Do I believe that it is possible that the universe somehow created itself?” To that I can say, without a doubt, yes. Keep in mind that I already know the retort you would use after having heard my answer. If you are educated in physics, you would try to use the First Law of Thermodynamics against such a response. Basically, you would tell me that that law states that you can’t get something from nothing.
Unfortunately for those that would cling to this argument, this law only applies to closed systems. We do not know whether or not the universe we are in is a closed or open system. The law you cite, applies only to ‘closed systems’, i.e. where nothing can be added or subtracted from the ’specimen’. Obviously if you apply the law to an empty box, then open the box and dump in a handful of sand, or quarks, or energy, you don’t expect the law to apply, because the system is not ‘closed’.
It is not known whether the universe as a whole is a closed system now at present. As far as conditions preceding and at the very moment of the ‘big bang’, we can only speculate whether the universe was closed, or open (to another, larger system), or whether the First Law (or lots of other laws) even applies under those extreme conditions.
first of all, i have many things in common with the author of this article. i also was in school to be in the ministry. i went to a small, very strict bible college in west virginia for a year, then found myself at liberty university in lynchburg, va, under the wing of jerry falwell. while i was at liberty, i decided that being in the ministry was not for me. i decided to pursue a career in writing.
nonetheless, years after i went to these institutions, my faith was still strong. it was strong until the point that i started to heavily analyze the garden of eden scenario. i call it a scenario because it was some writers attempt at telling us how we got here.
i mainly started questioning gods actions in this story, and also in the pentateuch as a whole. in 18 years of christianity, i was always taught that every creature has “free will” to do as they please. however, according to the garden scenario, adam and eve were PUT here, with an already existing tempter who was also PUT here. then there was a “tree” PUT here as well. they were told not to touch it, however god PUT it there for them to touch. to me, that is like giving a kid a gun, and when the kid murders with it, blaming the kid. if any god would do that, i want to be as far away from that god as possible.
it all stemmed from there and my roots of doubt grew deeper in, as i learned more about what i thought i believed. i learned of the sumerian tales of creation and the flood(epic of gilgamesh) and how blatantly similar they were, with the sumerian stories being written WELL before the hebrew stories.
i have completely dropped christianity and it was the best choice i ever made; less doubt, less guilt, less blame.
i call whatever was here first “god” and chances are my god is something to the effect of dark matter, or nothingness itself. religion is all about the search for afterlife. we only know consciousness, therefore humans want to believe that it continues. however, ill be happy to go back into the cycle.
I could pick up my gun right now and murder someone, but I choose not to. There is still free will whether God put the tree there or not. The whole point is that there has to be temptation, we have to make a choice between God, or the absence of Him. Without that choice we would just have been created to do whatever we are told, we would be robots, but thank God that is not true.
Are you asking others to do your homework for you?
Sketch Sepahi: yeah.
Doug Davis: No - but then I don’t know the answer and I don’t need to guess. I think you think you know, but you’re guessing.
chris b: It seems to me you’re identifying as a Deist.
Chase: It may seem like free will from your perspective, but if (as I suspect) you believe God knew all your thoughts and actions even before creating the universe (omniscience), then all events and outcomes are pre-determined.. so where is this free will?
This surely is a point where faith and logic collide.
yes, john morales has it dead on with what i was saying.
if god “planned” all of this, then we didnt have freewill to begin with. it is just an illusion. and even unto the belief of god within christianity, it falls short to explain anything.
here is the bottom line. adam and eve (fictional characters) DID NOT have free will, nor did any other human being that has existed since. my parents had sex (gross) and here i am. whos choice was that, mine? nope. was it my parents choice? sort of, they were allowed a choice because their parents had sex too (grosser) and on and on and on it goes….and it goes back to “god’s choice” which, unfortunately, was made before any of us even existed.
therefore if you believe in freewill, then you believe in just one of the many lies within religion, and this life as a whole.
i urge every christian that reads this to research what you believe outside of the bible. one must challenge the validity of anything before they believe it. go look up the greek god of wine dionysus. you will see some undeniable similarities between he and jesus.
dionysus was born of a virgin, was the son of zeus (son of god), he turned water into wine, told his followers to “eat his flesh and drink his blood” -literally, was crucified and after 3 days, he ascended into heaven to “sit at the right hand of zeus” ALL OF THIS IS IN GREEK MYTHOLOGY over 800+ years before jesus “existed” jesus is a mut, christianity is a mut, and it, as well as islam, has turned this entire world into a kennel.
oops mutt*
Oh chris b!
Such a wonderful post, spelling error and all. After I stopped laughing about the kennel analogy, and it is still making me smile, I just had to put my two pennies in here. As you can see from my user name that I have had my own questions about my faith. I can’t say that I have questioned the characters so much as far as comparing them to others in the past. My battle has been with trying to fit the teachings of the bible into everyday life. Is the god from the old testament the one we should be following or the one from the new testament? Should we be getting revenge on those that have hurt us or forgiving? Is my life predestined and I have certain health issues for a reason or am I supposed to see a doctor who is using his/her god given brain and get medicine? Priests in churches cannot answer these questions and so far the only thing that has happened to me on here is that I have felt like I have been insulted. So, I agree with you on hoping that all Christians will research, but the only thing that I have come across when I have mentioned that to my family (Roman Catholics) is a lot of anger. Keep the great posts coming!
“Is the god from the old testament the one we should be following or the one from the new testament?”
RC, I suggest that following OT dicta is likely to land you in jail.
It probably would be, John, but sometimes I would just like to try some of the things that happened in the OT, you know, pick out some modern day targets, and see if it makes me feel any better.
ha @ john and rc
ha @ john and rc. and thank you rc for the compliment. glad i can make a crack at “dog”ma and get a smile or two. also glad there are people seeking to recover from the depths of religion. that is a very great thing, and it is a very tough thing to do, one of the toughest things i ever did.
as yes rc, it is unfortunate, however, the religious speak of persecution incessantly, yet anyone who does not believe in accordance with “god’s word” gets persecuted by them. and unfortunately, that does, a lot of the time, include family and friends. i have “christian friends” who will not even speak to me now, and if they do, they make remarks about my beliefs, or rather, the lack thereof.
i have been into science for a long time, even when i was a believer. however, then i respected it but still thought it was of course….wrong. then after a while i kind of tried to mix them together(which is an act of futility) and that died out. nonetheless, it was not science that swayed me away, it was christianity itself that swayed me. it was the stories in the bible about a jealous, lunatic god in the o.t, and as if he is manic, a completely separate god in the n.t
once i read the story about elisha calling on god to maul 42 CHILDREN with two bears for making fun of his bald head, i had so many forks in me, you could see i was done from a mile away.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=31&search=2%20Kings%202:23-25
I have been enjoying myself by reading the posts written by your readers. I am impressed by the well-thoughtout and well-presented arguments contained therein and would like to pose the following:
Since it seems impossible to prove or disprove the existance of a Supreme Being to the satisfaction of everyone, why shouldn’t we at least give the benefit of a doubt and allow the existance of that Being? If we are wrong, no harm done and when we die, we just go off into a void. If we are right, then at least we have “hedged our bets, and then when we die we get any rewards that might await.
Bob B.
So, Bob, you’re saying I should believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Bob…
I see what you are saying, and that is why I am where I am, on the ever purple fence. Why purple? No particular reason, reason. It’s my favorite color, that’s all, and white is pretty boring. But, since you put that post in here John has commented in the opposite and here we sit. Now I am putting this in here and we are right back at the beginning. So, now Bob, it’s your turn again. My problem is that I am not much of a gambler, but at the same time my conscience really gets to me when I even think about the conflicts in that book or talk to someone about the teachings of the christian faith. I don’t want to put you on the spot, Bob, and I don’t think there are any right or wrong answers on this. Any thoughts?
I am sorry. I meant to say that there is no particular reason, really.
jm nice reference to the fsm. i love the fsm and i certainly have been “touched by his noodly appendage”
bob, i can definitely understand where youre coming from. while jm identified me as a deist in an above post, that is only partially true. i can acknowledge that a greater force made
me…but that greater force may be the cosmological system, not a definite god per se. while i peronsally see nothing wrong with believing in a definite god, i think it can get out of hand, as religion has gotten. what i am certaIn of, for me at least, is that the christian god is as made up as santa.
however, bob. you must ask yourself this. if there is an all knowing, all supreme god, then how did it come to be? who made it? i mean sure its easy to say it was always here. but you and i both know extremely intelligent things take time to evolve, and they evolve from a lower species…so even if god was a lower species…who made it? this is where the circle goes on and on and on. is space your god? the galaxy? the universe? this earth? technically all of them are…because they are all forces that are much greater than us…which created us and we are connected directly to them.
and youre right bob, in its simplest form, believing in a god shouldnt be any harm…you either win or lose. unfortunately, people dont make it that simple. every person who has a belief is “right” and everyone else is “wrong” the belief has trickled into our society, into our schools, politics, and onto our bumpers. the entire governing system of america, at its core, is related to christianity. there are churches on every corner. how many churches are there to worship greek gods? how about gods like wotan and thor? there are over 34,000 different sects of christianity. even they cant agree on what the bible says, yet im the one who is “wrong.” mark my words: the only way to ever have peace on this planet, is for everyone to drop religion. the wars would be cut by 90% or more. many, many, many things would cease to be a problem. thered be lass hate, more equality, more understanding and tolerance….but mostly thered be more peace. you will never see humanity in true, unbroken unity until this occurs.
humans long for a god, they long for an afterlife. we only know consciousness, therefore we devise a plan to make sure were going to still remain conscious, or alive, even if thats spiritual. it started way back bob, with our earliest ancestors who began to grasp death. humans have many ways of tricking themselves into thinking a certain way. we are survivors, therefore easing the pain of an inevitable death by believing we dont actually die, makes perfect sense. nonetheless, it does not take a genius to realize that a greater force made us, however, we must be careful how much credit we place around to who or what actually did it. i can promise you, this earth alone, is more advanced than any human being….by far. bare in mind also, humans are not one entity. we are comprised of millions of smaller counterparts…all with their own task..their own job. just as the red blood cells carry oxygen to me as i type this, i also have a purpose.
never forget the power of a choice. it is perhaps the greatest power of all. it is because of choice this whole system exists..and, at times, appears guided. for example, some desert dwellers 2500 years ago decided to write some shit down that they believed. 2.5 millenniums later, were typing away on a web page about it. that my friend, and fellow homo sapien, is POWER. one choice can have a ripple effect for an eternity. if that isnt power, i dont know what is…
rc, i feel that purple fence may be keeping in the purple elephant. be careful not to stain your pants.
sorry for the novel…keep the great posts coming.
Man I sure hope that there isn’t a stain back there! It might end up looking like a wine stain! Or is it “whine” stain? Let’s be real. I think I am just in denial about what my beliefs really are, and that’s about right. I mean, I WAS raised Roman Catholic, and that is what we are taught to do…be in denial, right? I was reading online the other night (go figure) and an atheist was being interviewed. She said that atheists these days are where gays and lesbians were 30 years ago…in the proverbial closet. I found myself agreeing. I thought back to Christmas. I was sitting next to a cousin I like (truly like) and I found myself whispering to her “I have something that I have to tell you” like it was a big secret. Before I could tell her that I am agnostic she leans in and whispers to me that she has converted to Lutheranism (a big no-no in my family also). Then there was a big silence and the Christmas pageant, complete with alive baby Jesus, was performed by the little cousins. I never got to tell her, but I remember thinking that it was interesting that we felt the need to whisper that information. I don’t know why I even felt the need to put that here, really. Just a rant, but something to think about and put out there.
rc i fully agree with you. i am quite vocal about my beliefs, but at the same time, there are times when i keep my mouth shut. for example, my girlfriend and i are both non-believers. my sister is a believer, and we agree to disagree. however, her dad and younger brother, and all of her family are believers.
we pretty much have to remain silent about our beliefs around them. she doesnt even want to tell her dad for fear of how hed react. he, of course, does not approve of us living together prior to marriage. all in all he does not treat her any differently over it, but it is a known fact he definitely does not agree.
also, i have some christian neighbors. when they moved in, i went over and introduced myself to them. she invited me to church and i kindly declined. over the course of a few months, she asked me a couple more times. well one of the times, i made the naive mistake of simply telling her i was not a believer. then came, “why?” and i answered trying to be brief. that of course turned into a discussion and her husband joining in and it ended with them pissed and being rude.
nonetheless, she told me in the course of that she thought i was a christian when i came and introduced myself, as if christ has to be inside me in order to not be an asshole. people assume non-believers are evil. that is far from true. in fact, some of the kindest people ive ever met are atheists. not to mention, i have found most atheists to be very deep, well rounded, intelligent people.
so, rc, be proud of who you are….even if youre in the closet with a purple pants stain!
trust me, that is far better than living life within a delusion. you will come to find people with whom you can speak freely.
two of my close former christian friends, have dropped their faith after hearing me think out loud when i lost mine. i used to convert souls for christ, now im taking them back!
rc, and anyone else who is interested, please listen to this lecture.
http://www.publicradio.org/tools/media_player/popup.php?name=wordforword/2007/09/070914_wfw_64
this is a man named sam harris. he has authored two books…and without even touching science…he sums up perfectly why religion is so bad. his ideas are the type of ideas we need to be spreading!
The point you made about the 250+ gods got me thinking, so when I get it all together, start looking for children’s hospitals dedicated to the great god Ba’al!
First, I DO believe that the Universe created itself, or at least that it could. My question would then be: “Do you believe God created Himself?” The answer I always get to this is “No one created God, God has always existed”. Well, that’s exactly how I feel about the universe! No one created it, it has always existed. Matter is created out of nothing all the time (and then promptly destroyed interacting with the antimatter created at the same time), so why not the Universe? Oh, and stop praying for us, it is pointless.
Hi Lin!
So here is my thought on the whole “I will pray for you” thing…take that energy, get off your can, and go and DO something instead. Work at a soup kitchen. Volunteer at the local elementary school. Make it count, ya know, Lin?