Submission From a Christian Viewer

11 Responses to “Submission From a Christian Viewer”

1. rivalarrival on October 18th, 2007 9:42 pm
   

   Christian Viewer,

   I hate to say it, but your post gave me a headache. After each paragraph, I shook my head and silently wondered what it takes to convince a person to suppress their own rationality.

   Every point you raised against Atheism and Agnosticism relies on your assumptions of the Atheist’s and Agnostic’s emotions and/or intellect. And, unsurprisingly, most of your assumptions are simply untrue.

   I’ll reply further in depth later.

   [Reply]
2. DanielMartin on October 18th, 2007 9:50 pm
   

   I appreciate where you’re coming from, and have heard that argument before - “why bother attacking so vehemently something you don’t believe in?”

   There are many things I don’t believe in - god, santa, unicorns, the paranormal, psychics - the reason I only rail against the former is because nobody kills another in the name of unicorns. Nobody is considered an infidel or heretic for not believing in santa. I would hardly expect threats of violence if I publicly stated my disbelief in the paranormal.

   Yet religion expects a carte blanche to have authority over the lives of not only its adherents, but also those who want nothing to do with it. In an ideal world, I would be more than happy to let people believe what they want, a live and let live philosophy, but until religion drops the aggressive intrusion into politics, education and science, I’ll continue to resist it.

   I find it almost an insulting double standard that you would even ask us to effectively sit quietly and keep to our humble selves, in light of religion’s past and present transgressions. We would have nothing to react against if the religious folk kept their beliefs to theirselves.

   Welcome to the site. It’s always nice to hear a well written argument from the ‘other side’. It’s a refreshing break from “why are you so angry?”, or one of the various forms of Pascal’s Wager. I hope to see more posts from you.

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3. Maxim on October 18th, 2007 10:57 pm
   

   I’m an atheist.

   I don’t do to others what I wouldn’t want to be done to me. That’s called a moral. No gods brought me this moral. I was raised christian but no christian I am since I’m 8 years old. God went through a few years after I learned that Santa Claus didn’t exist.

   I realised that Santa Claus is a nice story that parents tell us so that we keep dreaming and force us to be nice along the year so that we can deserve our gift. When I learned that he didn’t exist, I wanted to know what else parents or society tell us so that keep this beautiful dream.

   God is one of them. A lot of person of christian because they were raised christian by there parents and their community. What is exactly wrong with this picture?

   Adult acting like childs. Acting good through out their lives to expect to go to heaven. I see a lot of similarity in the god story and the santa claus story. Both to keep us nicely in row while there is people taking risk and living their life fully.

   I’ve read the bible. Not just the nice one. The old testament too. Those that says that we can rape woman, have slaves and to wage holy war against those who don’t believe.

   Who’s less “dangerous”? The christian who acts good because he fear his god, or the atheist who acts good because life deserve respect and that all men are equal whatever their religion or race?

   Don’t misunderstand me, the church has done good things. We just can’t allow the church to gain power through our schools or through our goverment with those kind of scriptures.

   Atheist don’t have scriptures or book of conduct. It’s called common sense.

   Next, there is no atheist army. We’re not an army. We don’t have an HQ like christian does (church, vatican, etc… which gives advice on how to interpret the “holy” scriptures). We live through the human common sense. We are afraid to send our kids to school and that they will come back endoctrined. We will sure let our kids pick a religion if this is what they truly believe. But we will let them choose. They wont burn in hell. They will see life as it is. Myriad of differences and the need to get along with everyone.

   On that… Cheers and if your god is not the “good” one. Well… I’ll let you think about that.

   P.S.: No. It’s not because he is “God” that he is the one. There is more than one religion on earth.

   [Reply]
4. Luci on October 19th, 2007 8:24 am
   

   Macushla

   You post reminds me of all the sermons I’ve heard whilst still a believer. None of it ever made any sense.

   For faith to be a crutch it has to have some substance, some evidence. At the moment people who use faith as a crutch are deluding themselves and are leaning on something that exists only in their imaginations.

   You called it crap. I have to agree.

   Regards

   ~~ lu

   [Reply]
5. Maverick on October 19th, 2007 1:14 pm
   

   Hello Everyone,

   I was raised as a Christian, but have often had a hard time with the hypocrisy and tunnel-vision present in today’s Christian belief systems.

   First, many Christians seem to have an “I’m good — you’re not” mentality toward non-Christians, or even people who are wanting to accept the Christian belief system. Almost a “not invented here” attitude.

   Also, there are a number of religions on Earth, each with its own literature, some that share parts of each others’ literature. For example, how can the Christian and Jewish God be the same? How can this one God be the only God when Mormons become Gods of their own planets, and Islamic believers have a God of their own too? It just doesn’t work for me….

   [Reply]
6. stone1343 on October 19th, 2007 2:06 pm
   

   Hi Macushla, if you’re the type of Christian who loves others, is tolerant of people’s differences, is not preaching creationism or trying to stop the use of condoms to battle AIDS in Africa or telling people they’re going to hell because their beliefs are different than yours or denying global warming or gay bashing, then you’re probably not the kind of Christian we’re writing about.

   I’m not at all opposed to liberal Christian spirituality (I don’t mean liberal in the political sense, but in the sense of having a liberal interpretation of the Bible) where the lesson is love, respect, dignity and tolerance. This is what the world needs more of.

   The problem is, the core concept of Christianity is deeply, fatally flawed in my opinion. You have to accept Jesus as your saviour to get eternal salvation in heaven, otherwise you’re going to hell. This is flawed in (at least) two fundamental ways:

   - Hell is a completely unacceptable concept - eternal, infinite punishment for God’s imperfect creation, and he can still be called a loving God?

   - It’s tribal, bigoted, divisive, whatever you want to call it. Christians feel the need to convert everyone to Jesus to save them from the fires of hell. You have to respect other people’s religions, because they think you’re wrong (and possibly going to their version of hell)

   Christianity would also be a lot better off if it didn’t have the baggage of the Old Testament, which is an abomination.

   Then there’s the problem that Christianity today is not what Jesus was preaching. It seems that in the last decade, the only people who call themselves Christians are the “born again” type, and I’d say that in general, they’re the problem.

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7. Ute on October 22nd, 2007 12:22 am
   

   Too many words… not enough substance. It’s not even worth discussing this. An atheist army… I’m laughing.

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8. DeSwiss on October 22nd, 2007 1:27 am
   

   Macushla, I’m a new poster here and in fact, this is actually my first one. Although I know TJM’s Admin, as we both belong to another website where we are plotting our strategy to undermine religion (I’m just kidding, no really).

   I must say that I detect a great deal of conflict and unrest in the tone, if not the language of your post. But I’ll give you credit for at least engaging the issues, rather than blindly accepting your beliefs without putting them to the test. Although I understand your reluctance to break totaly free of the religious chains that bind you — believe me, once you do, you’ll never feel better about yourself and life. Its only scary in the beginning like the rides at an amusement park.

   Religion is little more than an excellently crafted program whose primary design is as the carrier of guilt from one generation to the next. The guilt of course, is all about our supposed imperfection which was supposed to be the result of the actions of a perfect god. Which in itself is conflicting. This is at least part of my views on it. But rather than try to answer your many, many questions and assertions, I responded to the first few, and posed some questions of my own back to you.

   Q #1:
   I duly note all the rage that goes hand in hand with the concept of a belief system which exists in two dimensions, under the same name. Christianity as a religion and Christianity in purer individualistic forms of love, kindness, empathy, generosity, compassion.
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   Can you give examples? I can only think of a few of the Judeo/Christian variety. That of the shakers and the Quakers and possibly a few others. All are tiny groups and wouldn’t make a dent in the overall numbers of the “regular” type of Christians.
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   Q #2:
   It is absolutely a reality that man-unkind will continue to disappoint. No doubt. Mankind is a dysfunctional family unit. I am. You are.
   *****************************************
   Is this completely true? And mankind never uplifts? How do you know that I and others are dysfunctional? Might this not be an attribute more likely found among religionists since you know them so well and obviously haven’t a clue about atheists?
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   Q #3:
   Are you happy? NO? Neither am I. Sometimes, yes.
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   Is this even possible? Or desirable to happy all the time? How can we know what happiness is, without life’s anguish and turmoil? How could we ever appreciate happiness without knowing its alternatives? In my experience most people are only happy some of the time. The only people that i know who can be happy all the time, are the mentally ill.
   *****************************************
   Q #4:
   I was recently booted out of yet another church with accompanying fanfare. But why blame god? Some jack-asses tote the load, some sit and will not move.
   *****************************************
   Booted out? Why? What kind of fanfare? This load you speak of, were you toting it? Or you wouldn’t tote it? What exactly are you talking about here?
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   Q #5:
   Agnostics seem angry that God does not image the framework which parallels Jack and the beanstalk. There are no three beans, no three wishes. Believe me, this frustrated me as well.
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   That would be all agnostics that you’re talking about? You know them all? How many is that by the way?
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   Q #6:
   My concept of God is a loving God to whom you can rail, express yourself, yell “You suck!” And I do.
   *****************************************
   So does everyone get to choose their own concept of god like you? Then why do most religionists select the ones from off the rack? How can you only see the love and not the killing and raping done in your god’s name? How can you not see the sexual discrimination? The approval of slavery? Is it because its old and nobody simply talks about it any more? Does that make it okay now? God just made a mistake in his early days?
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   Q #7:
   And he will continue to sift through the harvest of my relationship and blow the chaff away.
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   And what’s left after the blowing away, is that the part that gets to go to heaven? How do you know what’s chaff and what’s not? And what would you be without the chaff? In agriculture, the chaff is what protects the seed inside. Without the chaff, the seed would have succumb to insects and weather and never been harvested. You wouldn’t exist without the chaff in other words. But its gets blown away, while the kernel goes to heaven. Sounds about right from this god’s background in everything else.
   *****************************************
   Q #8:
   Atheists are passionate about the non-existence of something they feel so strongly about, they move within the framework of a religion they boast about. With a name.
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   Atheists, and myself (which is something quite different but inclusive i assure you), are passionate about not having religionists shove their beliefs into our faces and into our lives. We are passionate about not allowing religionists to take over government in such a way that their beliefs have the force of law. Atheists are passionate about not allowing religionists and their beliefs to interfere with an individual’s right to equality under the law. Atheists don’t give a fig about being passionate about religion or the lack of having a religion. Our passion is a warning to religionists that we will not walk softly into that good night. Religionists should know (particularly since they’re very good at picking them), that they are in for a fight on these issues and that we do not intend to give way. Those days are over. All we ask is that you keep your beliefs where they belong, inside your Yahweh temples and we won’t bother you. When you come out of your temples with your beliefs and try to inculcate them into the mores of society, we object and we will not stay silent and we will dispute your god(s) and your right to make us live our lives in accordance with your view of reality. Period.

   That is about all of your letter I could reply to as I generally believe that talking to religionists about atheism is a waste of everyone’s time. I say this not because I think you’re inferior, but because I believe that while you can be assisted toward rationality, the steps have to be taken alone. You will either be honest with yourself or not. Unlike Christians, we don’t evangelize since we’re not a religion. We take people as they are and let them worry about their souls, or even whether or not there is such a thing as a soul. Now I’ve tried to be as honest as internet etiquette will permit. If I sounded truculent or abrasive, it was not my intent to goad you, but I’m known for my acerbity and I’m too old to change now. I also know this from experience of having been born a PK, and lived in the church for almost the first half of my life, I know the journey which your are now traveling upon. It can seem sometimes like an endless repetition of absurdity. So your questions and your getting “booted out” of a church is understandable for anyone who truly challenges life. The sycophants aren’t booted out, but rewarded and reinforced. So you have a unique opportunity here to learn something new about yourself and life. But to do so, you must first be honest.

   I’ve spent the past twenty-five years researching and learning the history of ancient times and in particular about religion. I can only say that you’ve got your wires crossed and need to crack a few books other than a bible. But you came here for a response, so I’m just giving you mine. You should take some time to study the history of your beliefs — where they came from, how they got to be beliefs, and what they really meant then, and now. And how those changes came about. The real answers, not that fake stuff they pass-off as the “revealed truth” from the temple pulpits on Sundays.

   You should know that you are still worshipping a 4000 year-old Bronze Age god whose origins are from among a pantheon of Semitic gods, of which Yahweh was only a minor player. And who just got lucky and survived them all. In reality he is a petty, vindictive, killer god. His main claim to fame before the Jews found him was that he dealt in storms. Yahweh was a god of thunder and lightening. And a pretty stupid god when you get down to it and read his words and thoughts. They defy logic at every turn. The campaign to soften his image through the introduction of the baby Jesus, was a big hit though and added years to this religion’s staying power. Particularly as the Romans and the church made certain that everyone “toted the load.” And if they didn’t, you would pay the ultimate price as a heretic. This is the legacy that you worship. And all that I can tell you is, if your looking for answers here you won’t find them in a church or the bible. They were never there to begin with. It amazes still, that people could think that a god who could create the whole universe would choose to inform us about it through the words and actions of the crass, ignorant and prancing princes of the church. Their “authority” is what we’ve given them. They have no proof or other claims that their view of reality is any more valid than that of Marduk, who predates and was the boss of Yahweh.

   I might also suggest that you distance yourself from spouting those preconceived notions you seem to have about other people and the groups they’ve been corralled into. Its never that simple. But I know that it makes it easier to label and categorize. Like when I say that all Christian live in a constant state of denial. Clearly that isn’t totally true. Its just mostly true….

   [Reply]
9. bipolar2 on October 22nd, 2007 12:35 pm
   

   ** A critique of content is overkill . . . **

   Clearly the post comes from someone whose native language is not English. Besides the fractured syntax and misuse of ordinary words, long-dead metaphors appear as if they were meant as pristine insights.

   There’s nothing to be gained by attempting to impose a coherent interpretation on material which is too poorly expressed to cohere.

   >> logic is not enough . . .

   One of the central problems with discussion on TJM, and all similar sites I’ve come across using StumbleUpon, I call “conceding out of ignorance.” Four (interacting) dimensions of discourse . . . of perspective get ignored:

   1. time — xianity appeared as a jewish heresy. It is a belief structure which has been in steep decline since 1600. Attempts to preserve it are shrill and vicious. They will fail because they are socially destructive. And xianity will totally cease as a “living” religion. (This what Nietzsche meant by the infamous phrase: “God is dead.”)

   2. space — most of the world’s people are not xian. They would resist (and have resisted) attempted conversion. Their religious views, of course, are mutually inconsistent. As myths, they are fictional prose and poetry.

   3. value — India and Japan are good examples where the dominant culture will not absorb an alien framework of religion antithetical to itself. Japan is basically a secular society. India has withstood domination by Buddhist elites and by Moslem elites. Buddhism no longer exists in the land of its birth, and by partition Islam was simply cut out of the Indian body politic.

   4. culture — most Europeans are secularists, and admit it. Most Americans are secularists, but don’t admit it. One upcoming test of cultural health in the U.S. — the elections of 2008 — will show whether the disease of fundamentalism will be limited by an immune system now trained to recognize it and begin a long process of limiting its virulence.

   >> the essence of concession

   Xianity looks big because you’re standing too close to it. In perspective, it can be dismissed — as a belief structure — along with all its closely related near eastern relatives: zoroastrianism, judaism, and islam. For example, all matters related to the internal workings of the xian’s so-called sacred writings — contradictions, bad arguments, polemics — in short attacking its apologists is a damned waste of your time. You might as well be parsing Batman at a comix convention.

   Your job lies elsewhere.

   bipolar2
   copyright asserted 2007

   [Reply]
10. Updoc101 on October 23rd, 2007 3:49 pm
    

    “…Christianity in purer individualistic forms of love, kindness, empathy, generosity, compassion.”
    I hate to point out the obvious but, you don’t need to be a Christian to practice any of the above.

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11. Alpha Orionis on October 26th, 2007 2:39 pm
    

    Machusia,

    Your views on atheism and agnosticism are, quite frankly, incorrect. You lack the necessary information to understand our angle. You are free to ask any and all of us, including myself.

    If you choose to contact me though, it will have to be by making a comment in one of my posts, that is the only time I check TheJesusMyth.

    Sincerely,

    Betelgeuse

    [Reply]

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