This site was started with a purpose; bring together theists and non-theists in a format of open dialog and debate. Along the way, some have been befriended and some have been offended. Are you one of the ones that hate this site or find it to be offensive? Okay, the site is yours to do with what you wish…provided that you can step up to the challenge.
Seriously. I am willing to hand over the registration of this site to the individual that can rise to the challenge that will be set forth in just a moment. This is not a stunt, this is for real. Not only will you receive the rights to the domain but all the databases are included as well! The WP template, every post, every comment and the rights to the domain name…all yours.
The Challenge
- Provide absolute proof for the Creationism theory as laid out within the pages of the Bible. This would include proof that the Earth, Sun, Moon and stars are less than 12,000 years old. (I could’ve said 7,000, but I want to give you some leniency.) Within that 12,000 years, please demonstrate how such genetic diversity within the human race came about. You must also be able to refute evidence of 5 known mass extinctions which seem to occur every 63-64 million years.
- Bring forth any empirical evidence that would support the notion of the divinity of Jesus. In fact, any evidence that you can put forth which supports the historicity of Jesus as presented in the New Testament will be considered. The question is not, “Did Jesus exist?” The question is, “Did Jesus, as portrayed in the Bible, exist?”
- Please provide verifiable proof that your god is the true god and not one of the other 250 or so that are currently worshiped.
- Please provide verifiable video footage of you doing a miracle that is greater than any miracle that is attributed to Jesus. For a list of miracles he supposedly performed and reason for this particular challenge, please read this.
- If god is absolutely perfect and the Bible is his Word, please give a rational reason as to why it needed to be mistranslated, revised, edited and voted on. While you’re at it, please explain how a book which is inspired by a perfect god could contain so many absurdities, inaccuracies, scientific fallacies and contradictions. For an amazingly thorough list of these, please visit the SAB.
There you have it! I believe that this is more than fair and I look forward to your responses! Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The keys to the site are waiting for you…
Oh, this ought to be fun.
Oh, yay… a challenge. Can’t wait to see who is going to win.
Wow. I’ll want to see christians answer to that.
Don’t confuse facts with beliefs now.
Faith is the FIRM belief for what there is no proof.
There is nothing in the bible that states or implies that the earth is 12,000 years old. Where did you get that number?
The Answers:
1. The Bible Says it.
2. The Bible Says it.
3. The Bible Says it.
4. The Bible Says it.
5. The Bible Says it.
So when do I get the keys to this baby!?!?!
Damn you DeSwiss…you beat me to it !!
My koran says something different and mine is the infallible word of God….what say you?
Both of you are delusional – This book is the only truth.
1. I think consulting some of the works of Henry Morris and his associates at best. Though some of it is amusing and been debated as long as the whole evolution versus creation idea.
2. Define “Empirical evidence” – there are some evidence out there including the works of an atheist now Christian named Josh McDowell in his book Evidences that Demand a Verdict and more than a carpentar(sp) And then the cites of Josesphus of Jesus really existing …. and then there is the works of the early church fathers to the testimonies of others of who Jesus was.
3. Proof – ah, but where’s the fun in that. I would say this is where faith comes into play. But you said proof – um (Despite some hypcrosy here and there) I would say the lifestyle of some Christ followers I know and that of its martys. Not really proof of being the true God but that is where faith comes in does it not …reason, faith and hope go hand in hand.
4. Well I’m not divinity so why would I need to perform miracles?
Maybe define. I’ve seen the list. For some a miracle is to just wake up in the morning or to even believe your team will win. (Just consult Duke football) For me a miracle is (and if you want the video footage tell me where to send it) just being a Toronto Maple Leafs Fan. (Which I’m sure Jesus was not)
5. Actually it wasn’t mistranslated but debated. There were 4 tests to the canonization process … and how we got the Bible. As to the inconsistencies – and so forth – it is called context and purpose – who was it writing to, why, etc. We treat the Bible as if it is an encyclopedia with every answer – it isn’t. It is God’s story interacting with humans – good, bad and inbetween.
Kind of like taking a line out of Julies Caesar and saying “Stab Caesar” and thinking it is inconsistent or that we are to go stab people named Julius …. ridiculous isn’t it? And yet when others who want to disprove it – need to not quote out of context or a verse here or there and say inconsistent but look at it as a whole.
Anyways … as I’m typing this I’m not doing this to “WIN” but saying some of it as a leveling ground and there is much we can learn from each other.
Gman, Thank you for your answers! Okay, here we go…
1) Henry Morris and Assoc. Hmmm. One of the founders of ICR (Institute of Creation research). A pseudo science circus that has had names attached to it like Gish and Hovind…Sorry, I don’t think that kind of that material will pass the mustard as true science, let alone truth. Several of the ICR’s claims have been refuted time and time again. Taking the word of a hydraulics engineer about such things as genetics and geology would be akin to listening to a musicians word over a mathematician’s with regards to abstract algebra. Starting with an answer is not science. The Founders of the ICR start with what they believe the answer is (creationism) and try to find everything they can to bolster it.
2) I never stated that Jesus did not exist as a person, please read the question more thoroughly. However, since you have brought it up, Josephus was decades after Jesus and makes reference to him only briefly. In fact, the mention of Jesus by Josephus is debated as to whether or not it is genuine. I find it quite odd that Josephus writes in detail for over a page about a thief that Herod punishes, yet this Messiah with his revolutionary teachings and miracles gets all of a paragraph…
3) Other religions have adherents that lead exemplary lives as well and have their own martyrs. This is not proof. You say where is the fun in proof? Thomas was not chided by his “Lord” for requiring proof. In fact, when he asked for it, it was readily made available! God seemingly had no problem with providing proof all throughout the Old Testament, just ask the Pharaoh who dealt with the plagues of Moses…
4) Because Jesus said his followers would…
5) No, there are parts that are quite clearly mistranslated. For example, Bab-el is Hebrew for Gate of God(s). The word has nothing to do with the language of the people being disrupted. Yet the current translations elude to this name being a pun for what supposedly happened. And if you believe that the early Councils were run civilly to determine what would stay in the Bible and what would not, grab a history book. There are many records of members bringing their minions to the council to enforce their vote by treacherous means.
As far as context goes, math does not lie, but that is a post for another time.
Thanks for clarifying. Some of these issues.
1. I understand ICR and think not all of their evidence is credible.
Though the Big Bang theory hasn’t been proven otherwise. There is room for faith in that.
2. That is why I asked for definition of what you are seeking.
3. Romans 1 does talk about there being prove through Creation. A creation therefore a Creator. just as if you stumbled across a Ferrari – you would assume (Though you know what assuming does though) someone made that vehicle and owns it.
4. The context of the verse referencing is Jesus saying the “Disciples” aka Apostles do greater things ….(Read Acts for the Miracles they did.
5. The canonization process under went a few things. I feel ya with the whole math thing.
Thanks for listening.
How could # 1 be done? The Bible does not say that the world was created in 12000 years? Who told you that?
Ever heard of the scientific principle Occam’s razor?
The simplest explanation tends to be the right one.
Therefore, God directs the evolution of all He has created.
Sabrina,
I won’t touch the 12,000 year reference other than to say that some of your Christian Brethren make that exact claim, citing various passages to justify this concept.
As far as Occam’s Razor: Strictly speaking, it is not a scientific principle, but a philosophic one. But I’ll get back to that…
Occam’s Razor suggests that the solution requiring the least significant assumptions is the “most correct”. This is frequently and fallaciously summarized as “Simpler is Better” (Read more on Occam’s Razor Here.)
For instance, when a window is shattered and a moment later, we see a teenage boy stuffing a slingshot into his pocket, the theory “The boy shot a rock through the window” is more likely than “God broke that window” or “The Flying Spaghetti Monster’s Noodly Appendage broke the window”
Back to the Scientific vs Philosophic issue: We did not observe the boy actually shooting the window, we only saw him putting away his slingshot. We ASSUME he shot the window. Given the facts so far, this is a fairly reasonable assumption, but it does not even begin to approach a level of scientific proof that the boy shot the window. In fact, it wasn’t the boy at all, but his friend down the street who broke the window: the two were shooting hickory nuts at eachother when his friend missed and hit the window.
You suggest that “God did it” with regards to evolutionary theory. Do you not understand how this is a bigger assumption than “Natural Selection did it”?
Let me explain: We have observed mechanisms that apply “pressure” on life forms. For example, soot from burning coal (or a volcano) darkened the natural habitat of predominantly light-colored moths. Over a VERY short period (a couple years) the moths still flourish, but are now predominantly dark colored.
Experiments confirm this “phenomenon”. We have observed “natural” causes and their effects. (this is but one example. Please read my earlier post on the subject of evolution, and use it as a starting point to learn more about the theory. The more you know about it, the better you can rebut it.)
We have NOT observed the Christian God. The only original source that claims otherwise is the Bible.
Which is the bigger assumption:
1. God has his hand in every last minute detail of existence and causes it to play out in such a way as to make us believe natural causes have natural effects
2. Natural causes have natural effects.
Incandescently,
Rival
As a student of Archaeology I would like to point out that according to the bibilcal calculations of Archbishop James Usher (Primate of all Ireland) the exact date for the creation of the earth by the Arbrahmic God goes back to 4004BC on the 23rd of October.
(Note: Dates subject to geographical change, the Mesolithic ends alot sooner in Mesopotamia and India than it does in the Scottish Highlands for example)
This is simply not possible. This removes all the Paleolithic Period (Old Stone Age) aproximatly 4 Million Years ago to 10,000 Years Ago, almost all of the Mesolithic (Middle Stone Age) Aproximatly 10,000 BCE – 5000 BCE (In Britain) and much of the Neolithic (New Stone-age, the period when farming was developed).
Radio-carbon dating of the few organic remenants of early Pre-history point fairly definatively towards these dates. While Radio-carbon dating is not an accurate technique for objects which are that old it can give a figure accurate to within a few centuries or a Millenia, which, when dealing with such large periods of time is satisfactory.
Even with the 12,000 year figure quoted by people above, all of the Palaeolithic is removed from the chronology. With the biblical timespan quoted by many creationists it is impossible to study the Archaeology of early Humanity.
Gman said “Define “Empirical evidence” – there are some evidence out there including the works of an atheist now Christian named Josh McDowell”……. An atheist now Christian….WTF…..That is the same as saying ” I did not believe in Santa before, but now I do.” Ever hear anyone say that? I thought not. That is just crap people say to sell books to dumb asses.
Most Christians have never read the bible they know nothing about the religion they claim to believe in. Therefore it is always impossable to have a debate with such infant like people who refuse to listen to anything that may prove there silly notions of good and evil to be false.
Christianity is a fake Roman religion that combined various pagan myths and merged them into 1 silly idea.
I will make this simple answer the following why was Easter celebrated 1000 yrs before the birth of Jesus and if you need a creator who created God.
PS a day is 24 hrs not a thousand years or some other silly notion you have to invent because creating everything in 6 days does imdeed sound moronic.
There is a book called “The Case for Christ” written by an atheist, Lee Strobel. All the answers you are looking for is found in this book. It is pretty interesting. He also wrote a book called The Case for the Creator and the Case for Faith. He has a law background and a journalism degree. He wrote for the Chicago Tribune. These books will answer your questions. I hope you take the time to read The Case for Christ if you seriously want answers.
This is an atheist site and not at all one designed to ,as you say “bring together theists and non-theists in a format of open dialog and debate”.
What gave you the idea that ‘The Holy Bible’ or ‘Christian theology’ as currently preached by it’s church is the original divine message;and not the corrupted version passed on to humanity by a self serving church hijacked by Rome ?
How can debunking such fiction equate to debunking true theisism ?
rivalarrival,true as you say, “Occam’s Razor: Strictly speaking, it is not a scientific principle”.But can’t you see,neither is evolution an answer to creation! How can it be,when the very defination of evolution posits a creation to evolve from?
Theism is all about seeking answers to this problem of creation.
Nor can nature or natural selection be an answer ,for what you call nature is nothing but a sum of all creation -and it’s interplay -under the constraints of time and space or the physical laws that we can quantify and experience.
In the old testament it tells us that the world is a circular. The documents are proven to be written in the years before Christ with the aid of carbon dating. People thought the world was flat until Galileo pushed science further. If you deny the bible, be careful there many shocking understandings in it which can be clarified through science. The old testament also says that the planet was hanging in mid air. Think how these over looked facts continually present in the bible. Just remember there is emperical eveidence that God is God. My words may sound plain and pushy but think about it. Old testament knows about these thing. Theres is vast knowledge in there that can alinged with science today. There are fairy tales/moral stories but then again there are several outstanding statements or verses that proves God is there somewhere. You shall see but deny it forever. God is real dudes.
Circular, yes. Spherical, no. “He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 40:22)”
The word they used was ‘hug’ which means circle. A circle is not a sphere or a ball or an egg-shaped object. If they meant to say a sphere, they could’ve used the word ‘dur,’ which means ‘ball.’ That passage only talks about the circularity of a flat earth-disc not of a sphere.
Psalm 104:5
He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
So, which is it?
The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth. (Daniel 4:10-11)
Hard to see a tree on the other side of the Earth, no?
“The earth takes shape like clay under a seal.” (Job 38:14)
That would be squashed flat, no a sphere.
The Quar’an states that there are cross currents under the surface of the ocean well before scientific acknowledgment. Does this mean that the Quar’an is the word of God?
I’m not a fundy or anything but I just wanna comment on this, hugh ross has SQUASHED any “scientific” fallacies that the Bible makes. He’s an expert not only in textual criticism but in science as well. Most scientific fallacies in genesis are pointed out by people who clearly don’t understand the text. I can’t remember what book it is (you can probably watch “who was adam?” series on youtube) but he goes through genesis and makes it very clear that it’s in the exact order of natural history (he gives startling reasons to accept that it’s symbolic and not literal like those loony creationists). I don’t know, i Just think that hugh ross covers alot based on textual criticism and science, he’s not nearly renowned enough. INteresting stuff I’m looking forward to this!